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 Post subject: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 3:18 pm 
Solaris Luna
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They seem to be very open-minded in regard to same-sex relationships, it's even featured in children's anime series. Couples seem to be accepted by many, but the thought of marriage isn't? I had to look it up and was shocked when I did. They seem to be more accepting than in the U.S. anyways.


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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 5:26 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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Okay it is for one a bad idea, to base assumption on a foreign country on cartoons,and there entertainment. That s like basing America on the Sims games,and cartoon 's like The Fairly odd parents ? Now for the other thing the entertainment.You need to get a lot Yaoi,and Yuri is not gear homosexual. There gear towards the opposite genders.
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/answerm ... -03/.98211
I think this articl might be helpful.
This video might be helpful as well, as in how it s like too be LGQBT in Japan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxQYu4MOFCY


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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 6:35 pm 
Galaxias
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Last time I checked, raping lolis with tentacles wasn't legalized in Japan either. But since it's depicted in games and manga so often and seems to be a universally accepted phenomenon in Japan, I think it's only a matter of time before it becomes legal. :ohdear:

imaginationgirl wrote:
That s like basing America on the Sims games,and cartoon 's like The Fairly odd parents ?

Why, I think that's quite an accurate representation. Maybe add South Park to the list to get a full picture. P-:

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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 6:42 pm 
Columnae Creationis
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Maraviollantes wrote:
Last time I checked, raping lolis with tentacles wasn't legalized in Japan either. But since it's depicted in games and manga so often and seems to be a universally accepted phenomenon in Japan, I think it's only a matter of time before it becomes legal. :ohdear:

As I understand, sexual depictions of lolis have now been legally banned over there now. :P

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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 6:52 pm 
Galaxias
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Rika-Chicchi wrote:
As I understand, sexual depictions of lolis have now been legally banned over there now. :P

You mean real children? I didn't hear any recent news from Japan related to lolicon.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 9:15 pm 
Columnae Creationis
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Maraviollantes wrote:
Rika-Chicchi wrote:
As I understand, sexual depictions of lolis have now been legally banned over there now. :P

You mean real children? I didn't hear any recent news from Japan related to lolicon.

I meant manga depictions (real children depictions have already been banned over there for many years now) - or have I confused between proposed legislation & passed legislation? :confused:

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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2016 10:54 pm 
Galaxias
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Rika-Chicchi wrote:
I meant manga depictions (real children depictions have already been banned over there for many years now) - or have I confused between proposed legislation & passed legislation? :confused:

There was a law imposing more strict limits on places where lolicon stuff can be sold and requiring more clear 18+ marking, and that's about it. If you go to dlsite or getchu and type "ロリ" you'll see hundreds of titles being sold right now. For sure it's not forbidden.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 12:41 am 
Lumen Cinereum
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imaginationgirl wrote:
Okay it is for one a bad idea, to base assumption on a foreign country on cartoons,and there entertainment. That s like basing America on the Sims games,and cartoon 's like The Fairly odd parents ? Now for the other thing the entertainment.You need to get a lot Yaoi,and Yuri is not gear homosexual. There gear towards the opposite genders.
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/answerm ... -03/.98211
I think this articl might be helpful.
This video might be helpful as well, as in how it s like too be LGQBT in Japan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxQYu4MOFCY


Quite true. Not saying gay marriage is good or bad, or whether Japan should have it (that's another topic for another day), but one should not based their idea of a country solely on its cultural product. That is a rather naive approach to observing a country in my opinion.

And speaking of...errrr....hentai, despite their obsession with sex given the booming Japanese AV industry and hentai, a survey has shown the Japanese have the least sex among nationalities. Contradiction? Or perhaps not...


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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 3:05 am 
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Animefan wrote:

And speaking of...errrr....hentai, despite their obsession with sex given the booming Japanese AV industry and hentai, a survey has shown the Japanese have the least sex among nationalities. Contradiction? Or perhaps not...

An ex and I discussed this at one point, and, from what I gathered, it's more of a band-aid solution in the attempts to hope that the younger generation will breed.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 7:03 am 
Lumen Cinereum
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Remus Tsukino wrote:
Animefan wrote:

And speaking of...errrr....hentai, despite their obsession with sex given the booming Japanese AV industry and hentai, a survey has shown the Japanese have the least sex among nationalities. Contradiction? Or perhaps not...

An ex and I discussed this at one point, and, from what I gathered, it's more of a band-aid solution in the attempts to hope that the younger generation will breed.


Its possible. But it can have the opposite effect I'm told. Watching too much porn has been shown to lower your interest in engaging in real sex because your partner does not "live up" to the expectation of your AV idol. Likewise, hentai can in fact dissuade one from sex. I'm personally in no way an expert on hentai (its not my cup of tea, to put it mildly), but the few I've seen is really twisted and grotesque. It will guarantee to make someone watching it repulsed from sex. No idea why some Japanese are so into those nasty stuff. Beats me.


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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 10:52 am 
Systema Solare
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^It's not just the Japanese, hentai exports around the world. I think some of it is made to appeal to people who just want the novelty of something foreign and shocking, though some tropes (like tentacles) have very interesting histories.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 11:08 am 
Lumen Cinereum
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Salem Saberhagen wrote:
^It's not just the Japanese, hentai exports around the world. I think some of it is made to appeal to people who just want the novelty of something foreign and shocking, though some tropes (like tentacles) have very interesting histories.


If it appeals to others around the world, it would only be a very specific and narrow niche.

I'm not a prude, but someone who finds tentacle rape appealing is someone who is decidedly not mainstream, to put it mildly. Certainly one would not consider this appeal as normal. Yes, I know some like to take pride in being different from the rest, such as having interests that might be considered a little kooky. In most cases, there is nothing wrong with that. In fact, it may even be indicative of their brilliance or innovative thinking. But with hentai, I really don't see what intrinsic value it has. Its demeaning to women, promotes rape, and in some examples, even promote beastality. That is seriously f**ked up, if you asked me. It may even reflect some mental conditions with these people who are into that extreme sub-genre of hentai.

As for tentacle-based erotica, I know some of it can be traced back to 19th century Japanese woodwork painting. But modern day hentai I think is rather different.

P.S-I should clarify, not ALL hentai is as peversed and twisted as tentacle rape. Some are pretty much standard porn in anime format, be it straight/gay/lesbian or bisexual. Fine, nothing wrong with that. A few might even have a compelling story at its core. But unfortunately, the most infamous and well-known examples of hentai are those that are really way too extreme and screwed up. Those notorious examples, I mean, I really have to question the creators and audience who are into that sort of hentai.


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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 1:57 pm 
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Animefan wrote:
Its demeaning to women, promotes rape

Aaaaactually...... I own a copy of Massive, which examines bara manga (gay manga made by men for men). Gengoroh Tagame does have several rape manga, but it's "shot," in a way reminiscent of BDSM, which he happens to be a big fan of.
As for demeaning to women, several hentai and erotica in Japan is done by women. There was actually a UN meeting where they debated for Japan to ban works of sexual violence towards women. There's a transcript of that here.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 2:47 pm 
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Remus Tsukino wrote:
Animefan wrote:
Its demeaning to women, promotes rape

Aaaaactually...... I own a copy of Massive, which examines bara manga (gay manga made by men for men). Gengoroh Tagame does have several rape manga, but it's "shot," in a way reminiscent of BDSM, which he happens to be a big fan of.
As for demeaning to women, several hentai and erotica in Japan is done by women. There was actually a UN meeting where they debated for Japan to ban works of sexual violence towards women. There's a transcript of that here.


The fact some hentai were written by women would not necessarily change the fact its subject matter is demeaning to women. I mean, if an Asian-American wrote racist stuff against Asian-Americans, it would not change the fact it is racist stuff, regardless of who wrote it. The key is not gender or race of the author, but content of the works.

As for UN meeting, I may not agree with an outright banning of hentai (that's a freedom of expression issue), but it does not change the fact some regard hentai as demeaning to women.


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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 3:08 pm 
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Animefan wrote:
Remus Tsukino wrote:
Animefan wrote:
Its demeaning to women, promotes rape

Aaaaactually...... I own a copy of Massive, which examines bara manga (gay manga made by men for men). Gengoroh Tagame does have several rape manga, but it's "shot," in a way reminiscent of BDSM, which he happens to be a big fan of.
As for demeaning to women, several hentai and erotica in Japan is done by women. There was actually a UN meeting where they debated for Japan to ban works of sexual violence towards women. There's a transcript of that here.


The fact some hentai were written by women would not necessarily change the fact its subject matter is demeaning to women. I mean, if an Asian-American wrote racist stuff against Asian-Americans, it would not change the fact it is racist stuff, regardless of who wrote it. The key is not gender or race of the author, but content of the works.

As for UN meeting, I may not agree with an outright banning of hentai (that's a freedom of expression issue), but it does not change the fact some regard hentai as demeaning to women.

No, it's demeaning to the fictional character. It is NOT a representation of women, it is not even a representation of a minority of women, it is a fictional character. Can a fictional character be a role model? Sure. Can a fictional character be inspiring? Yes. But not every fictional character needs to be that and a fictional character does not represent all men or all women.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 3:55 pm 
Galaxias
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Animefan wrote:
The fact some hentai were written by women would not necessarily change the fact its subject matter is demeaning to women. I mean, if an Asian-American wrote racist stuff against Asian-Americans, it would not change the fact it is racist stuff, regardless of who wrote it. The key is not gender or race of the author, but content of the works.

Quite so. Racists want to eliminate all inferior races, and hentai writers want to rape all the women in this world with tentacles. That's why your comparison is totally valid and relevant. I wonder how you imagine the future world where tentacle hentai becomes mainstream. We'll be ruled by our tentacle overlords, with a few resistance groups hiding in ghettos? :P

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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 4:59 pm 
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Remus Tsukino wrote:



As for UN meeting, I may not agree with an outright banning of hentai (that's a freedom of expression issue), but it does not change the fact some regard hentai as demeaning to women.
No, it's demeaning to the fictional character. It is NOT a representation of women, it is not even a representation of a minority of women, it is a fictional character. Can a fictional character be a role model? Sure. Can a fictional character be inspiring? Yes. But not every fictional character needs to be that and a fictional character does not represent all men or all women.


Fictional representation often reflects the gender position in the minds of a particular culture. Not in a literal sense of condoning rape, but legitimating the subservient position of women through its portrayal. It is not about representing all women, here. My point is that their gender is irrelevant. Its what their work actually says that matter.


Last edited by Animefan on Thu May 19, 2016 5:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 5:02 pm 
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Maraviollantes wrote:
Animefan wrote:
The fact some hentai were written by women would not necessarily change the fact its subject matter is demeaning to women. I mean, if an Asian-American wrote racist stuff against Asian-Americans, it would not change the fact it is racist stuff, regardless of who wrote it. The key is not gender or race of the author, but content of the works.

Quite so. Racists want to eliminate all inferior races, and hentai writers want to rape all the women in this world with tentacles. That's why your comparison is totally valid and relevant. I wonder how you imagine the future world where tentacle hentai becomes mainstream. We'll be ruled by our tentacle overlords, with a few resistance groups hiding in ghettos? :P


I bet you think Santa Claus is real and so is Godzilla right? Who said anything about a literal meaning of hentai? Its what hentai represents in symbolizing women. A subservient position. Why is it almost always women subjected to that kind of treatment in hentai? Its not about the literal tentacles, its about what that represents.

P.S-Sailor Moon ain't real, did you know that? That must be shocking to you, eh? ;)


Last edited by Animefan on Thu May 19, 2016 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 5:13 pm 
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Animefan wrote:

Fictional representation often reflects the gender position in the minds of a particular culture. Not in a literal sense of condoning rape, but legitimating the subservient position of women through its portrayal. It is not about representing all women, here. My point is that their gender is irrelevant. Its what their work actually says that matter.

But that argument is also flawed as well. Just because a niche genre portrays such things, doesn't mean that it's all across the media.
To use a Western example, the character Vampirella is a sexual one in a skimpy uniform and an excellent character. But she is not representative of all women nor all standards of women in the Western society. She is just ONE character in the comics medium that has a wide variety. Vampirella is vastly different from Emma Frost and both are vastly different from Kitty Pryde or Gwen Stacy. The danger comes from when someone looks at Vampi and says "this is representation of all women in media." The field is too vast and complex to simply state that.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 5:17 pm 
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Remus Tsukino wrote:
Animefan wrote:

Fictional representation often reflects the gender position in the minds of a particular culture. Not in a literal sense of condoning rape, but legitimating the subservient position of women through its portrayal. It is not about representing all women, here. My point is that their gender is irrelevant. Its what their work actually says that matter.

But that argument is also flawed as well. Just because a niche genre portrays such things, doesn't mean that it's all across the media.
To use a Western example, the character Vampirella is a sexual one in a skimpy uniform and an excellent character. But she is not representative of all women nor all standards of women in the Western society. She is just ONE character in the comics medium that has a wide variety. Vampirella is vastly different from Emma Frost and both are vastly different from Kitty Pryde or Gwen Stacy. The danger comes from when someone looks at Vampi and says "this is representation of all women in media." The field is too vast and complex to simply state that.


But your comparison is somewhat problematic as well. Vampirella is one character. Hentai is a whole genre. Ok, I am only referring to the more extreme end of hentai, but that is still a whole sub-genre.

Anyway, I think we have come to an impasse. Live and let live is my view in terms of different opinions.


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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 5:31 pm 
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Animefan wrote:
Remus Tsukino wrote:
Animefan wrote:

Fictional representation often reflects the gender position in the minds of a particular culture. Not in a literal sense of condoning rape, but legitimating the subservient position of women through its portrayal. It is not about representing all women, here. My point is that their gender is irrelevant. Its what their work actually says that matter.

But that argument is also flawed as well. Just because a niche genre portrays such things, doesn't mean that it's all across the media.
To use a Western example, the character Vampirella is a sexual one in a skimpy uniform and an excellent character. But she is not representative of all women nor all standards of women in the Western society. She is just ONE character in the comics medium that has a wide variety. Vampirella is vastly different from Emma Frost and both are vastly different from Kitty Pryde or Gwen Stacy. The danger comes from when someone looks at Vampi and says "this is representation of all women in media." The field is too vast and complex to simply state that.


But your comparison is somewhat problematic as well. Vampirella is one character. Hentai is a whole genre. Ok, I am only referring to the more extreme end of hentai, but that is still a whole sub-genre.

Anyway, I think we have come to an impasse. Live and let live is my view in terms of different opinions.

I suppose that's fair and all we can do.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2016 6:54 pm 
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Animefan wrote:
I bet you think Santa Claus is real and so is Godzilla right? Who said anything about a literal meaning of hentai? Its what hentai represents in symbolizing women. A subservient position. Why is it almost always women subjected to that kind of treatment in hentai? Its not about the literal tentacles, its about what that represents.

P.S-Sailor Moon ain't real, did you know that? That must be shocking to you, eh? ;)

I'm not quite following you, and how any of that is related to the discussion above, anyway? :confused:

I was simply pointing to your illogical racism book analogy in this context - racists do want to oppress other people and limit their rights, while hentai writers don't want to oppress and limit anybody. That's exactly why we have the full right to say we know better than Asian-American racist writers what is demeaning to other Asian-Americans and what isn't. We know that "if an Asian-American wrote racist stuff against Asian-American" it's still racist, because he calls for oppression of other people - not just because "I don't like his book, so it's is racist" But from here you somehow jump to a conclusion that if a woman writes a book about tentacle rape, her book is still demeaning - while completely ignoring the part explaining what, specifically, entitles you to the right to say "we know better than female hentai writers what is demeaning to other women and what isn't". There are big problems with logic in your analogy - hence my sarcastic post. I hope it's more clear this time.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 1:37 am 
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Maraviollantes wrote:
Animefan wrote:
I bet you think Santa Claus is real and so is Godzilla right? Who said anything about a literal meaning of hentai? Its what hentai represents in symbolizing women. A subservient position. Why is it almost always women subjected to that kind of treatment in hentai? Its not about the literal tentacles, its about what that represents.

P.S-Sailor Moon ain't real, did you know that? That must be shocking to you, eh? ;)

I'm not quite following you, and how any of that is related to the discussion above, anyway? :confused:

I was simply pointing to your illogical racism book analogy in this context - racists do want to oppress other people and limit their rights, while hentai writers don't want to oppress and limit anybody. That's exactly why we have the full right to say we know better than Asian-American racist writers what is demeaning to other Asian-Americans and what isn't. We know that "if an Asian-American wrote racist stuff against Asian-American" it's still racist, because he calls for oppression of other people - not just because "I don't like his book, so it's is racist" But from here you somehow jump to a conclusion that if a woman writes a book about tentacle rape, her book is still demeaning - while completely ignoring the part explaining what, specifically, entitles you to the right to say "we know better than female hentai writers what is demeaning to other women and what isn't". There are big problems with logic in your analogy - hence my sarcastic post. I hope it's more clear this time.


I'm being sarcastic because you can't distinguish symbolic meaning from the literal. I'm saying a pot should not call the kettle black. You got serious problems with logic with your own post, so you should not go about accusing others of it. Hentai writers don't want to oppress or limit anybody? Maybe not intentionally, but the effect is just the same. Their works do have a demeaning effect on women. You have difficulty grasping the literal-symbolic divide. I think you got to learn consequences and effects of something does not stem from its literal meaning. There is no tentacle rape in reality, but the message it sends is demeaning to women. Santa Claus ain't real, so is Godzillia. Only a fool would take the literal meaning of that.


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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 2:27 am 
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Serious question: will the same hold true for men being demeaned if I draw a tentacle hentai of a man? Or are only women vulnerable to such portrayals?

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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 6:14 am 
Solaris Luna
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HeartWarrior wrote:
They seem to be very open-minded in regard to same-sex relationships, it's even featured in children's anime series. Couples seem to be accepted by many, but the thought of marriage isn't? I had to look it up and was shocked when I did. They seem to be more accepting than in the U.S. anyways.


They are not more accepting than in the U.S. at all. In many ways, Japan is a backwards country. It has a very homogeneous society with a very strict set of social rules, and in order to "belong," you must obey all of the rules. Not belonging means being socially excluded.

What you see on manga and anime is just fantasy... fantasy that (1) might be seen as an attempt from mangakas to rebel (I know that CLAMP fits into that category), (2) to objectify or fetishize same-sex relations (as many female mangakas do), or (3) to rescue Japan's historical roots from before Japan became influenced by Confucianism (my interpretation from the manga/anime "Mirage of Blaze").

In any way, think this way:

USA = individualism
Japan = collectivism

Here is a story written by a foreigner gay man who lives in Japan and the struggles he faces: http://takureinoroom.com/2014/09/01/exp ... roduction/


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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2016 1:18 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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Japan is a very perfectionist society as well.


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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2016 7:34 pm 
Aurorae Lunares
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That is true about the country. One of my best friends who is almost like a brother to me is Japanese and he knows a lot about Japan. The way you see Japan is depicted in Sailor Moon is nothing how it is in real life. Boy was I wrong to assume that. Sure, the cultural elements of Japan in the show and manga are in real life but many things, and I mean MANY things in the show sadly do not reflect the real world Japan.

They also have an honor system and they are all about honor. My friend from Japan has told me that if you do 1 thing that is dishonorable, you will get disowned by so many people there it isn't funny. He did tell me that this might be the cause of their suicide rate being so high.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2016 9:28 pm 
Columnae Creationis
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Salem Saberhagen wrote:
Serious question: will the same hold true for men being demeaned if I draw a tentacle hentai of a man? Or are only women vulnerable to such portrayals?

PGSM would be guilty of that in its Special Act, in which Endymion was caught by a (female) tentacled monster. :P

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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2016 10:38 pm 
Systema Solare
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Rika-Chicchi wrote:
Salem Saberhagen wrote:
Serious question: will the same hold true for men being demeaned if I draw a tentacle hentai of a man? Or are only women vulnerable to such portrayals?

PGSM would be guilty of that in its Special Act, in which Endymion was caught by a (female) tentacled monster. :P


I knew I was wrong to have not yet watched the bonus acts! Vamanos!

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 Post subject: Re: I'm shocked Same-Sex Marriage is NOT legalized in Japan!
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 2:44 am 
Aurorae Lunares
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In regards to the opening, I'm not surprised Japan bans marriage equality because of anime but I am surprised because of how secular a nation Japan is. It's my understanding like only 1% of Japan is Christian and that most Japanese are either non-religious or cultural Buddhists and Shintos. There doesn't seem to be much of an organized religious opposition to LGBT rights in Japan like there is in the U.S. so it's surprising they have such hangups over it when other secular nations like Sweden and the UK are more progressive on LGBT rights. On the subject of hentai, in fairness to Japan, there's lots of extreme porn catering to all sorts of fetishes on U.S. porn sites, and we had a certain book series about an abusive billionaire become popular with women in the U.S. recently.


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